tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post6766552425014025706..comments2023-06-20T08:47:26.303-04:00Comments on The Spiritual Workout: The Largest Genocide our World has Ever SeenLieslhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-42310740597471854862011-10-28T10:40:21.140-04:002011-10-28T10:40:21.140-04:00Just - I apologize. I only called it a "cop o...Just - I apologize. I only called it a "cop out" response because I can't even count how many times people resort to the "This is why I left the Church" response. I, for one, have never felt more free than when I started to truly “hide behind” Catholicism!<br /><br />Comparing abortion to genocide and the Holocaust is nothing new. My post makes comparisons between the two, and I don't see how this is an arguable point. I guess if you disagree that a child in the womb is a human being, you could argue otherwise, but that is a completely different line of logic. Have you seen <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI&feature=player_embedded" rel="nofollow">this video</a>? I really recommend you check it out. He fleshes out the comparison to the Holocaust and genocide a lot more cleanly than I do.<br /><br />Abortion is nothing new. What is new is that it is legal to have an abortion, and in many cases even encouraged. The issue is that over 50 million children have been aborted since it became a legal “option” – there were not this many abortions occurring throughout history in this amount of time before. I only brought up the point of throwing Margaret Sanger (yes, I know she’s dead) and government officials into jail to show that it’s not just women and doctors who have allowed abortion to happen – it’s society as a whole. <br /><br />If abortions are not coerced, then why are pro-choice people opposed to requiring an ultrasound to allow a woman to hear the heartbeat - or the <a href="http://www.sba-list.org/suzy-b-blog/sheila-jackson-lees-heart-less-floor-speech" rel="nofollow">"sound"</a> - of the child inside of her before having an abortion procedure? This would be presenting all the options and allowing the woman to make a fully informed decision.Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-37981866961301460682011-10-27T23:28:07.853-04:002011-10-27T23:28:07.853-04:00I figured it would be pointless to argue anything ...I figured it would be pointless to argue anything more because in the end Catholicism is a shield to hide behind for just about everything. But my "response is a cop out"? Them's fightin' words.<br /><br />You pretty much proved the genocide point for me; Hitler is not at all the same as pregnant women. Abortion is a legal option, not a systematic extermination of all known fetuses. You can argue the eugenics bit if you like, but most women cite <a href="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html" rel="nofollow">inability to pay for/care for a child</a> as the reason they are having an abortion.<br /><br />Margaret Sanger was a huge proponent of women's rights and the ability to be in control of one's own reproductive system. She had her issues with racism and eugenics, but so did Susan B. Anthony and Henry Ford (the former allowed racism as long as southern white women could vote, the latter was an anti-semite and open Hitler admirer). These people were products of their times. That doesn't excuse their poor views and actions, but my point is this: do we boycott Ford vehicles because of Henry Ford's opinions? Have we burned up the US Constitution because its writers were slave owners? We don't, and Planned Parenthood does not currently reflect Margaret Sanger's problematic qualities. In fact, Sanger was pro-life when she founded the original organization, so it has certainly undergone changes since then. Margaret Sanger never killed anyone, so, uh, no I don't think we should throw her in jail. Plus she died in 1966 so that would be tough.<br /><br />Most abortions are coerced? Um, okay. If that is even true, we can pass laws prohibiting and punishing such things, which some states have already done. I trust women to be fully informed individuals; if abortion clinics aren't letting them know what all of the options are, prosecute them on a case by case basis, along with the crisis pregnancy centers who claim to offer medical services but don't have to comply with HIPAA or provide abortion referrals.<br /><br />"Changing hearts" is a really nice thought, but abortions have been happening for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#History" rel="nofollow">thousands of years</a>; it's not like everyone suddenly became the dreaded Culture of Death that popes love to go on about. Women will want and need abortions for the foreseeable future, and personally, no amount of guilt-tripping genocide-paralleling claptrap will convince me that an undeveloped organism inside a woman's body is more important than that woman and her right to bodily autonomy.<br /><br />P.S. Just FYI, this is what a <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?pagewanted=all" rel="nofollow">pro-life nation</a> looks like: women imprisoned for 30+ years after an abortion, unable to be operated on for ectopic (life threatening) pregnancies, investigations into miscarriages... sound good?Just a Questionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-53625783639250652422011-10-25T23:29:08.336-04:002011-10-25T23:29:08.336-04:00Katie - of course abstinence will beat out any bir...Katie - of course abstinence will beat out any birth control method, but considering that most people have sex at some point in their lives from which they do not want to conceive, it's not exactly the end-all be-all. I also agree that the Pill is inconvenient, has icky side effects, etc. That's why I picked a birth control method that is environmentally friendly, non-hormonal, lasts for 12 years if I need it to, only cost a $20 co-pay at the doctor's office, no maintenance necessary, 99% effective. Unfortunately, a lot of women are poor and/or uninsured, which is why I suspect they are getting less than stellar birth control methods whose effectiveness can be difficult to maintain, and causing a spike in unplanned pregnancies and therefore abortions. Just another reading of the data that shows a correlation between bc and abortions.<br /><br />Thanks y'all, for reminding me of why I left the church. Believing in a god who creates people with a sex drive, posits that abortion at any stage is murder, then damns people for putting a piece of rubber on their genitals to prevent aforementioned murder is simply beyond me. Nonetheless, I appreciate your good faith responses.Just a Questionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-64681008004464899522011-10-25T10:28:38.339-04:002011-10-25T10:28:38.339-04:00There needs to be a distinction made here between ...There needs to be a distinction made here between moral and civil law. The women who choose to have an abortion are <b>morally</b> at fault - abortion is a grave sin and is never acceptable in any circumstance. (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church <a href="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P7Z.HTM#R1" rel="nofollow">2270-2275</a>) The doctors who are performing the abortion are also morally at fault, but if abortion is made illegal again in this country, they are civilly at fault because they are the ones actually doing the killing. Hitler was the one responsible for killing the millions of people that died in the Holocaust, and he is morally and civilly responsible for their deaths. He made the choice to decide who lives and who dies based on supremacist ideas, knowing full well what he was doing. He was not under extreme circumstances, whereas these women are. Women seeking abortions are often the second victims, and sometimes violently and abusively so. Check the stats. Most abortions <a href="http://theunchoice.com/" rel="nofollow">are coerced</a> and women are not trusted to make an informed choice and given all the information that they should be given before getting an abortion. Women who choose to have an abortion are not in the same state as Hitler or any other genocide leader has been. This can be another post entirely, but compare Margaret Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood and one of the first proponents of birth control) to Hitler. They had the same ideas of extinguishing <b>entire</b> populations of people. If we’re going to start throwing people in jail – let’s throw Margaret Sanger in jail. Or how about the Supreme Court justices that ruled on Roe v. Wade? How about the lawmakers who continue to pass laws protecting a woman’s “right to choose”? Again, this issue was politicized because it was taken to the courts, whereas (like I already stated) it should never have been an issue that the government had to deal with because the idea of murdering a person at any stage of life should be completely abhorrent to our culture. It should have never come to the point where we have to ask the question of “Who do we throw into jail?”<br /><br />As for sympathizing for these women, I commit mortal sins as well. Have I ever had an abortion (or been in a situation where I've needed one)? No. Have I lied? Yes. Have I taken the Lord's name in vain? Yes. Have I coveted my neighbors’ things? Yes. Have I gossiped? Yes. The list goes on and on (thank God for Confession!). This is why I feel sympathy - because choosing the right path is not always the easiest path. I pray to God that I will never be in a situation that is as emotionally and physically damaging as abortion can be, but how is me feel sympathy for women odd? A serial killer serving life in prison has been served justice, yet I still feel sympathy for him and his soul. Just because people have done wrong does not mean that we should not sympathize with them - it is part of the basic human condition to feel compassion for others (which quite literally means "to join with them in suffering").<br /><br />I think that Katie did a stellar job of tackling the NFP and birth control part of your response, so I will leave that to her. I will leave you <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2011/10/10-reasons-the-pill-sucks.html" rel="nofollow">another link</a> though that succinctly delves into all the horrors behind the pill, as well as <a href="http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/01/contraception-leads-to-abortion-come.html" rel="nofollow">another</a> that discusses how untrue it is that contraception leads to less abortions. These posts can explain these (with supporting statistics) much better than I can.Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-89796067809038442342011-10-25T08:52:00.451-04:002011-10-25T08:52:00.451-04:00Just A Question- On the NFP comment- then I don...Just A Question- On the NFP comment- then I don't think you are looking very hard, if at all. The Church is our there giving free information and training in Natural Family Planning. No one is every turned away from classes because they can't afford to pay for the class. Of course for those more fortunate, there is a fee to help cover the cost of materials for the class but that fee has been and will be waved if someone can not afford it. <br /><br />On the Birth Control comment, you are dead on. You don't see the Church giving out free contraception or info about it. There are lots of reasons for this, but here are two of my favorite. One is that the Church is morally opposed to contraception (for more info on this see Genesis 38:7-10 or the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1652) Also, the second reason is that birth control doesn't do that stellar of a job to prevent unplanned pregnancy or abortion, especially when you compare it to abstinence.<br /><br />While hormonal contraceptives are cited in literature to have an effectiveness of around 98-99% with perfect use that statistic can and does drop very rapidly with typical use. For example, for peak effectiveness the pill must be taken at the same time (within an hour) everyday. Should one be off by just an 1 or 2 hour the efficacy drops to 85-90%. Should one forget completely to take a pill one day, the efficacy drops to roughly 70%. Also, there are a variety of drugs that can and do interfere with the mechanism of action that OC use and again severely decrease the efficacy. I'm sure because of reasons like this (and similar reasons for other forms of contraception) that the statistic for women receiving abortions that were using birth control is 54%.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-59027771106589490162011-10-24T23:23:46.815-04:002011-10-24T23:23:46.815-04:00Hey Just:
your first paragraph is flawed. Who are...Hey Just:<br /><br />your first paragraph is flawed. Who are the wrongdoers in a genocide? The Hitlers and the men pulling the trigger while facing a line up of Jews. The woman choosing abortion for her unborn child and the doctor performing it. <br /><br />Second: You said that no one gets pregnant just to have an abortion, implying that any pro-life voice said this was so -- and they haven't. The child is unwanted, that's why they want to exclude it from living outside of the womb. Oh! You want free information about natural family planning? Sure, we do that. You want the Church to teach artificial forms of birth control? Sorry, we can't do that because it would be inconsistent with a very clear teaching: sex should be open to being free, total, faithful, and fruitful, every time. If it's not, it neglects a facet of what sex is: an act of the body that communicates the most intimate commitment. It simply cannot get more intimate than a loving relationship, under an eternal commitment, in addition to the physical act of sex. We remain consistent. Pro-choice voices do not.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13304484454718892120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-2012081356125746942011-10-24T19:07:07.719-04:002011-10-24T19:07:07.719-04:00So the women who request the procedures are not at...So the women who request the procedures are not at fault, but the doctors who perform them are? I only ask because that is where the parallel to genocide falls apart. You don't believe that the perpetrators, the ones giving the order to "murder", are to be blamed for their actions, in fact you have sympathy for them... it's odd.<br /><br />No one goes and gets pregnant just to have an abortion. It's not something anyone wants to do. What I find interesting is that, as much as the Catholic church says that it's murder and loss of fully-formed human life, I don't see them out there giving everyone free information and training on natural family planning. I don't see the church putting birth control options in the hands of women, which aside from abstinence is the only way to prevent the unplanned pregnancies that account for most of abortion.Just a Questionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-60488622261230606432011-10-16T23:38:46.226-04:002011-10-16T23:38:46.226-04:00Julie - thanks for the fact! I didn't realize ...Julie - thanks for the fact! I didn't realize that, so I guess my title is slightly inaccurate :) <br /><br />Just a Question - I'm guessing that your question holds a bit of sarcasm in it... but I do not believe that women who seek abortion should be put into jail. In many cases, these women are hurting, and need to be treated with love and respect, and shown that there are other options out there (check out my post that points out the abortion statistics compared to those seeking to adopt a baby in the US - http://spiritualworkoutblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/faulty-logic-of-pro-choice-movement.html).<br /><br />As for the doctors - if abortion is illegal in a state or the US, then yes, they should be put into jail.<br /><br />But as I highlighted in this post, it comes down to <b>converting hearts</b>. This isn't a battle we fight out between two sides, with the "wins" going back and forth, in the courtroom. This is a battle that has to be fought in our hearts to the point where the idea of a mother or doctor wanting to abort an unborn life is just unthinkable. Our world used to be that way - I think the better question is why did it change?Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-38249986795879080802011-09-20T10:50:36.936-04:002011-09-20T10:50:36.936-04:00Great post! Although, actually, the Soviet Gulags ...Great post! Although, actually, the Soviet Gulags were worse. It is estimated 50 million died between 1930 and 1950. The difference is that the Russian government killed their own people, verses targeting minorities.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10845051786114528609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-21153612286671449272011-04-08T14:40:45.188-04:002011-04-08T14:40:45.188-04:00I 100% agree with this, although it must have been...I 100% agree with this, although it must have been overwhelming to see the museum in person and connect these 2 incredible tragedies. It is becoming increasingly harder for me to understand how anyone cannot be saddened and angry that so many of our brothers and sisters have been killed in silence, never getting a chance at life.<br /><br />Great post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06478837043080098087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-50662010839779932002011-04-08T14:30:06.997-04:002011-04-08T14:30:06.997-04:00This post gave me chills. Thank you for writing i...This post gave me chills. Thank you for writing it!not a minx, a moron, or a parasitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04799393593685552159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-91774874584745552322011-04-05T11:00:54.261-04:002011-04-05T11:00:54.261-04:00Ahhh thank you! I'm so glad you like it! It wa...Ahhh thank you! I'm so glad you like it! It was just something I had to write after reflecting on my museum visit.Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4497760910646342088.post-29192975618021105752011-04-05T09:05:13.294-04:002011-04-05T09:05:13.294-04:00Ahhh superb job, Liesl!! I am definitely featuring...Ahhh superb job, Liesl!! I am definitely featuring this in my 7QT this week!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13304484454718892120noreply@blogger.com